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I'm new to this message board and I'd like to first start off by saying hello. It's great to have a place to share ideas on how we can achieve that "industry" sound that we want for our own CD projects. I find this website to be a great source of information and a great place to learn various techniques used by pros and I'm happy to be a part of it.
I've been making rap / hip-hop beats for over 10 years and listened to a lot of rap music in my days. However, I'm still trying to figure out how to get those magic "industry" TR-808 high-hats and cymbals. It's probably a bad way to describe what I'm really looking for so let me explain in more detail. For example, I've heard and downloaded several TR808 cymbals and high-hats as well as purchased and sampled several pieces of gear (including a "real" TR808) with 808 kits and compared my 808 hats and cymbals to the TR808 hats and cymbals KLC (former "Beats by the Pound" producer) uses as well as Dr. Dre and a few others. Somehow, their 808 hats and especially their 808 ride cymbals have a sweet sizzling sparkling lifelike sound that I just can't seem to reproduce with my cymbals and hats even if I process them. It may seem like they used eq on the 808 cymbals but to my ears, their 808 have a certain sonic harmonic quality that I just can't seem to get with mines. I can throw Waves parametric eq and compression VST plug-ins, aural excitement, chorus, or reverb at my 808 cymbals and hats all day and still not be able to reproduce "that sound" that I'm looking for. All eq plug-ins do for me is just boost/cut selected frequencies sometimes making them sound harsh and not really "coloring" the sound by placing harmonic content of the original signal into a certain frequency band that wasn't there before, which is what I really want. It seems like the natural harmonic content of the 808 cymbals and hats used in professional recordings are in a higher octave and/or frequency band than my TR808 samples for whatever reason. Then again, they might not be an octave higher because if I pitch my TR808 cymbals/hats samples up 12 semitones (1 octave), then they will sound like trash (short, thin, and lifeless). I'd definitely like to know what type of eq or other processor the engineers used in their studio to make their 808 cymbals sound so good. I was even beginning to think the sonic quality was in the instrument itself and the top producers all had real TR808s with filtering modifications to the high hats and cymbals (or at least samples of one) or maybe some other secret piece of gear with brilliant 808 samples that I don't know about. So I really can't figure out whether it's in the instrument itself or the sound design/engineering. I'm leaning more toward the sound design/engineering side though.
To give you an example of the sonic qualities I'm talking about regarding 808 cymbals, lets look at the Joemadsamples TR808 collection (particularly the Young Joc 'It's Going Down' 808 kit). Listen to the Young Joc TR808 collections demo on the Joemadsames website and pay close attention to the TR808 ride cymbal. Then listen to the original Young Joc song "It's Going Down" and pay close attention to their 808 ride cymbal and do an A-B comparison. You will notice the 808 cymbal in the original Young Joc song has a lot more sizzle and sounds as if it's sonic harmonic characteristics are at a higher frequency band than the Joemadsamples 808 cymbal. Maybe I should ask this question. First of all, Is the 808 cymbal in Joemadsamples Young Joc kit the same exact 808 cymbal sample used in the original song? If so, can anyone give me an idea as to why the qualities of the 808 cymbal in the original song sound so much crispier?
I've never used a high-end analog hardware parametric eq so maybe I should also ask this question. Does the $2000-$3000 analog high-end parametric equalizers actually color the sound and alter the sonic qualities and harmonic content of the original sound material when certain frequency bands are boosted or cut? When a certain frequency band is boosted, will the harmonic qualities of the original sound material be reproduced in that particular frequency band, making the processed signal sound so different from the original raw material that it sound as if the raw material itself was different to begin with? If it's not eq at all, then what other kind of processing could possibly give me that "sparkle" I'm looking for in my 808 high hats and cymbals? After spending years and lots of money on gear trying to achieve this sound, I still have yet to accomplish it. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Yo kvmoore:
Are you listening to mp3's or wavs? If you're listening to the joemadsamples demo it's an mp3. Mp3's usually don't sound nearly has good as wavs. If you're comparing the joemadsamples mp3 version to a WAV version from yung joc's CD: there would be frequencies missing from the joemadsamples mp3. I think the yung joc kit is clean and sampled straight from an 808 and some kind of synth for the melody. It's not a chopped instrumental. Do you have the 808 collection?
No. I don't have the 808 collection but I was considering purchasing it. Both, the demo and the Version from the yung joc song I'm comparing are mp3. Even though the mp3 files lack quality compared to CDs, I still notice a certain characteristic in the cymbals in the original song (it's part of the recording). The reason I think what I'm hearing could be the result of high-end top-grade audio signal processing equipment used in big budget studios is because I also have a "real" TR808 and I still am unable to get that quality of sound out of my 808 cymbals and high hats.
Then again, I've also read and personally heard some TR808s sound different from others--just like the different revision of Sequential Circuits Prophet 5 synths (rev1. rev2 & rev 3) have a different sound. I went to a analog synth convention back in '05 and had a chance to listen/play with a real 808 in person for the first time. Later that year, I bought one of my own and mine's sound slightly different from the one at the convention (snare at a higher pitch, high hats & cymbals sound a little different, etc...). Is there a certain version or serial number range of TR808s most sought after by rap producers? Mine is Serial No. 010731. Is there anything I should look for when purchasing another one on ebay? If I ever get my money right, I'd probably buy another 808 if I have to and possibly get the 808 I currently own modified with an external knob box with extra controls and MIDI retrofitted by Analog Solutions later on.
In the mean time, I will give the 808 collection a try though since I've read nothing but good things about it. Now that I think about it, if the Joemad's 808 samples in the Young Joc kit came straight from an 808 but not the "same" 808 that was used in the original Young Joc song, then maybe that would explain the difference in the sound of the 808 cymbals. If it wasn't studio processing. Then it's gotta be the 808 itself since some sound different from others!!! So if I can find the "right" 808 or just add more functionality and control over the sound of my 808, particularly the filtering of the high-hats and cymbals, then I would probably hit the jackpot!!!! If I'm wrong about this, please guide me in the right direction.
Last but not least, maybe I should ask this question. Were the 808 samples used in Joemad's Young Joc kit sampled directly from the "same" TR808 used in the original song?
Thanks.
Hey kvmoore:
I'll try to answer your questions to the best of my ability. You have a great ear. Our demo is a recreation using samples recorded straight out of a modded TR-808 and a combo of synth sounds from a KORG MS2000.
In addition to high end analog filters; analog tape saturation or an analog tape fx software (or rackmount) could add to the color of the yung joc cymbals on the original version. Expensive equipment helps but there are some things you can try on a budget.
Here's a method I actually used on the synth samples for the yung joc kit (I learned this from reading an interview with Pharell & hugo of the Neptunes):
In pro tools I copied an analog synth track. I pasted the track on a seperate track and then detuned it a little (-10 cents more or less). It gets more of a saturated tube sound. The same method should work with the tr-808 cymbal as well.
Thanks for your help. That's just the info I was looking for. I somehow figured it could've been some kind of high-end filtering along with some other effect. I've never though about tape saturation so that's something I need to try out too if I can find a software plugin. I'll also definitely try that copy-paste-detuning method as well. Brilliant ideas!!!!
Thanks again.
Hi Joemad, I've just purchased your "808 Collection" and I must say the 808 booms & kicks as well as the claps & snares are superb!!!!!!!! You must've had your 808 modified with an extra pot for tunning of the 808 kick drum because I've noticed the supreme quality maintained in the kick drum at various pitches and the length of the kick drum doesn't change (get longer or shorter at different pitches) like samples do (sampling an 808 kick once then pitching it up and down on a sampler). I've noticed the same with the high hats too so you must have a pitch modification for that as well. The next closest thing from a modified 808 that can allow this capability is the Novation Drumstation (I have one of those also) which models the 808.
However, I'm not really impressed with the 808 open high hats and cymbals in this set because of the characteristics of their natural sound. Don't get me wrong. You have sampled these extremely well with superb quality and these are authentic samples of the 808 high hats and cymbals. It's just the fact that not all 808s sound the same and the tonal characteristics of high hats and cymbals on some 808s sound sweeter to my taste than others. I've tried the various processing techniques you suggested through software and they don't really effect the characteristics of the sound to my satisfaction. Therefore, I think it's part of the natural sound of 808s themselves (Are these things alive?!!!!). I'm probably being waaay too picky here but I would give anything to have samples of KLC's 808 high hats and cymbals. As a matter or fact, I'm even considering finding out if he has a website and dropping him an email (I don't know if it'll work but it's worth a try). I feel I just must have the sound of the 808 cymbals and high hats from the 808 used by the "Beats by the Pound" crew because they inspire me to make better sounding 808 tracks and the beats in my head just wouldn't sound right without them. I've heard tracks from other producers with these same 808 high hats and cymbals too, Dr. Dre and DJ Squeeky just to name a couple.
However, I'll definitely be using your "808 Collection" in my tracks and would recommend it to anyone because it's absolutely superb. Great job!!!!!!
If you're curious of exact the 808 cymbal I'm looking for here's a sample of a Master P song "Burbons And Lacs" on his "Ghetto D" album. At the very beginning of the clip, you will hear the 808 cymbal in the track.
Here's a better example from the song "FEDz" on the "Tru 2 da Game" album. In this song, it sounds like they've added a little chorus to the same cymbal used in the previous song (in the link above) to make it stand out more (take note of the first 808 ride hit with a longer sustain and higher pitch). You also hear the open 808 high hat that I'm looking for in this song as well:
These audio clips came from amazon.com
Thanks for your help.
Hey kvmoore:
Thanks for the feedback. Yeah... we have a break out box on the 808 that has extra knobs for most of the sounds (including the BD & HH). The mod allows for tuning and a longer decay.
If we get another 808 we'll definately sample it. Maybe the CB's and OH's will sound better. We also have the Novation DrumStation but I'm not really into it that much. We may sell it soon. Do you use yours much?
Wow sweet!!!!!! It that one of those Analog solutions mod boxes? I've looked into those and always wondered how they sounded.
Yeah. I use my Drumstation every once in a while. I like the kick drum on it but I feel it's limited. The decay is not long enough and there's no pitch envelope on the kick drum like on the real 808 when the kick is accented. It would be superb if it wasn't for those limitations, but it still would not beat a real 808. Furthermore, the cymbals and high hats on the Drumstation suck compared to some of the real 808s. I wouldn't mind having my real 808 kick drum modified with a midi retrofit, tuning and extend decay of the kick drum, tuning and decay for the snare, and filtering and tuning controls for the cymbal and hats. I can't really afford all that right now so I'll just hold on to it for the time being.
I've spent a little more time playing with the cymbal from your sample set and by adding a little parametric eq boost on a certain frequency, I was able to get something somewhat close to what I was looking for but not quite on the money. It's all in the characteristics of the 808 itself. It would be really sweet if there was a way to modify the 808 to have extra controls for tuning and mixing each of the individual oscillators that make up the 808 hats and cymbals to give you an infinite number of possible variations in the sound characteristics. If you do get a hold of another 808, that would indeed be wonderful.
I think it might be analogue solutions but it doesn't have a name on it. It's just a white box with the knobs. We bought it modded already.
The Drumstation is a great unit. I think it works better in electronica than hip hop. In hip hop tracks the real 808 sound is needed :)
Yeap. I definitely agree.
Hi, I've noticed the price of your 808 collection has gone up from $14.99 to $19.99. Has the collection been updated with some addition sounds? Or was the $14.99 price just a special limited time sale price?
I hope there are some new 808 samples! Let me know if you find out. I guess we can just email them.
Hi to all.
I know this topic is almost a year old now, but I just made an exciting new discovery. Those so called "industry" TR808 cymbals and hi-hats I've been hearing on verious hip-hop records (particularly the 808 sounds used by the KLC and the former "Beats by the Pound" crew for No Limit Records) didn't actually come directly from a real 808. They are actually TR808 samples found in the Emu-Mo Phatt sound module!!!!!!!!!! I wish I had known this all of these years but now, I've finally found the source of those wonderful 808 drums. I think Emu did a fantastic job on creating the sample set used in the Mo Phatt. Excellent!!!!!!!!!
In addition to the 808 collection, I'd recommend everyone to get the Mo Phatt collection!!!!!!!!!!!
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